[L2Ork-dev] Current HEAD of Purr Data is broken
Jonathan Wilkes
jon.w.wilkes at gmail.com
Thu Jul 2 00:35:01 EDT 2020
On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 11:53 PM Ivica Bukvic <ico at vt.edu> wrote:
> If you can help me understand how I can incrementally add to an existing
> merge request I'm all ears.
>
>
If you've made a merge request for branch "fix-dac-crasher" do this:
1. checkout "fix-dac-crasher"
2. change some code, git add some files
3. commit
4. git push
That's it. Works for me, though I use the Gitlab interface to initiate the
merge request. But that shouldn't make a difference.
> Best,
>
> Ico
>
> --
> Ivica Ico Bukvic, D.M.A.
> Director, Creativity + Innovation
> Institute for Creativity, Arts, and Technology
>
> Virginia Tech
> Creative Technologies in Music
> School of Performing Arts – 0141
> Blacksburg, VA 24061
> (540) 231-6139
> ico at vt.edu
>
> www.icat.vt.edu
> www.performingarts.vt.edu
> l2ork.icat.vt.edu
> ico.bukvic.net
>
> On Wed, Jul 1, 2020, 19:17 Albert Graef <aggraef at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks. But why a separate merge request? Can't that single commit just
>> be added to the existing
>> https://git.purrdata.net/jwilkes/purr-data/-/merge_requests/403? If you
>> just keep adding new merge requests for each and every trivial change, that
>> makes it so much harder for others to comprehend what's going on and
>> re-test. Just keep adding to the original branch and push to the MR until
>> it's finished, that's the workflow that everybody uses.
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 7:31 PM Ivica Ico Bukvic <ico at vt.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> There is now a new merge request to remove the debugging info. This
>>> should, as far as I can tell, resolve all the issues Albert pointed out so
>>> far. AFAICT I was unable to reproduce the problem Albert mentioned with the
>>> 00.under.construction patch.
>>>
>>> https://git.purrdata.net/jwilkes/purr-data/-/merge_requests/406
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Ico
>>> On 7/1/2020 1:20 PM, Ivica Bukvic wrote:
>>>
>>> I got the debug message resolved. Will be submitting a merge request
>>> shortly. Still working on the other one.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Ico
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ivica Ico Bukvic, D.M.A.
>>> Director, Creativity + Innovation
>>> Institute for Creativity, Arts, and Technology
>>>
>>> Virginia Tech
>>> Creative Technologies in Music
>>> School of Performing Arts – 0141
>>> Blacksburg, VA 24061
>>> (540) 231-6139ico at vt.edu
>>> ci.icat.vt.eduwww.icat.vt.eduwww.performingarts.vt.edul2ork.icat.vt.eduico.bukvic.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 12:40 AM Albert Graef <aggraef at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm getting those debugging messages also with vanilla array scalars:
>>>>
>>>> [image: image.png]
>>>>
>>>> That might just be some leftover debugging message. At least this
>>>> example seems to work properly.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 6:35 AM Albert Graef <aggraef at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ok, that improved things *a lot*. The about dialog is working again,
>>>>> as does doc/4.data.structures/07.sequencer.pd. But I'm still having trouble
>>>>> with some (array-related?) pd-l2ork scalar examples, specifically
>>>>> doc/4.data.structures/pd-l2ork/ds-tutorials/00.under.construction.pd gives
>>>>> me this when launched (and the animation of the construction sign fails to
>>>>> work):
>>>>>
>>>>> [image: image.png]
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you have a fix for that as well? It seems that we're getting really
>>>>> close...
>>>>>
>>>>> Albert
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 4:14 AM Ivica Ico Bukvic <ico at vt.edu> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Just submitted a merge request that does 2 things:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) fixes the scalar issue and
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2) included as a separate commit in the same merge request items that
>>>>>> were for some reason omitted during the mergefest
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This should now solve most issues with the exception of the 0.47
>>>>>> features whose status I did not explore in detail since they have not been
>>>>>> completely merged.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The new scrollbars do work here but please note I am using 0.47.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ico
>>>>>> On 6/30/2020 9:32 PM, Ivica Ico Bukvic wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Never mind, this should apply onto your branch fine. I am curious why
>>>>>> my "git checkout -b <new_branch> upstream/master" does not get me the most
>>>>>> up-to-date content from your branch. Plot thickens...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Once I figure out this, I will send you a merge request.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ico
>>>>>> On 6/30/2020 9:29 PM, Ivica Ico Bukvic wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, I cannot issue a merge request since the main branch still has
>>>>>> the older version of gui_scalar_new that does not have the plot_style
>>>>>> option which is meant to fine-tune plot positioning (and may be tied to the
>>>>>> 0.4x nw.js). While this fixes it on my branch, I will have to dig through
>>>>>> yours to see what you may have not been merged (as is the case with the
>>>>>> previously mentioned merge) to have caused this regression.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I really wish that we moved forward with the 0.4x transition...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ico
>>>>>> On 6/30/2020 9:22 PM, Ivica Ico Bukvic wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OK, I got the fix. This was definitely my doing--in fixing the plots
>>>>>> I completely forgot that a non-plot scalar may not have a valid plot type
>>>>>> and therefore will have matrix left undefined. Below is a diff. Also, I
>>>>>> will send out a merge request shortly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ico
>>>>>>
>>>>>> index 6d85631a..1a0ea4bc 100644
>>>>>> --- a/pd/nw/pdgui.js
>>>>>> +++ b/pd/nw/pdgui.js
>>>>>> @@ -3514,7 +3514,11 @@ function gui_scalar_new(cid, tag, isselected,
>>>>>> t1, t2, t3, t4, t5, t6,
>>>>>> transform_string = "translate(" + 0 +
>>>>>> "," + (t6+1) + ") scale(" + t1 + "," + t4 +
>>>>>> ")";
>>>>>> //post("transform_string = " + transform_string);
>>>>>> - break;
>>>>>> + break;
>>>>>> + default:
>>>>>> + // we are a non-plot scalar
>>>>>> + matrix = [t1,t2,t3,t4,t5,t6];
>>>>>> + break;
>>>>>> }
>>>>>> }
>>>>>> else {
>>>>>> @@ -3535,6 +3539,10 @@ function gui_scalar_new(cid, tag, isselected,
>>>>>> t1, t2, t3, t4, t5, t6,
>>>>>> "," + (t6+1.5) + ") scale(" + t1 + "," + t4
>>>>>> + ")";
>>>>>> //post("transform_string = " + transform_string);
>>>>>> break;
>>>>>> + default:
>>>>>> + // we are a non-plot scalar
>>>>>> + matrix = [t1,t2,t3,t4,t5,t6];
>>>>>> + break;
>>>>>> }
>>>>>> }
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/30/2020 9:13 PM, Ivica Ico Bukvic wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It appears my branch is affected, as well, so it is either something
>>>>>> I did or something that was merged from the main branch. The error is as
>>>>>> follows (on Windows, at least):
>>>>>>
>>>>>> C:\Program Files (x86)\Purr Data\bin\pdgui.js:3542 Uncaught
>>>>>> TypeError: Cannot read property 'join' of undefined
>>>>>> at C:\Program Files (x86)\Purr Data\bin\pdgui.js:3542:51
>>>>>> at get (C:\Program Files (x86)\Purr Data\bin\pdgui.js:2057:21)
>>>>>> at Object.get_elem (C:\Program Files (x86)\Purr
>>>>>> Data\bin\pdgui.js:2073:24)
>>>>>> at gui_scalar_new (C:\Program Files (x86)\Purr
>>>>>> Data\bin\pdgui.js:3491:14)
>>>>>> at eval (eval at perfect_parser (C:\Program Files (x86)\Purr
>>>>>> Data\bin\pdgui.js:1885:21), <anonymous>:1:1)
>>>>>> at perfect_parser (C:\Program Files (x86)\Purr
>>>>>> Data\bin\pdgui.js:1885:21)
>>>>>> at Socket.<anonymous> (C:\Program Files (x86)\Purr
>>>>>> Data\bin\pdgui.js:1903:9)
>>>>>> at Socket.emit (events.js:315)
>>>>>> at addChunk (_stream_readable.js:302)
>>>>>> at readableAddChunk (_stream_readable.js:278)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ico
>>>>>> On 6/30/2020 8:08 PM, Ivica Bukvic wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Before we do that, allow me to take a stab at this to see what may
>>>>>> have broke. I will also test to see if my branch exhibits the same problem.
>>>>>> What about the plot drawing optimizations you introduced, could they be
>>>>>> also somehow involved? I don't have those yet on my branch and have not
>>>>>> experienced any known problems yet, although I need to test the about page.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ico
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Ivica Ico Bukvic, D.M.A.
>>>>>> Director, Creativity + Innovation
>>>>>> Institute for Creativity, Arts, and Technology
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Virginia Tech
>>>>>> Creative Technologies in Music
>>>>>> School of Performing Arts – 0141
>>>>>> Blacksburg, VA 24061
>>>>>> (540) 231-6139
>>>>>> ico at vt.edu
>>>>>>
>>>>>> www.icat.vt.edu
>>>>>> www.performingarts.vt.edu
>>>>>> l2ork.icat.vt.edu
>>>>>> ico.bukvic.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 19:23 Jonathan Wilkes <jon.w.wilkes at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Albert-- now that HEAD is what it is, what would the process be of
>>>>>>> rolling it back while putting all those merges
>>>>>>> into a separate nwjs-update branch?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Jonathan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 5:57 PM Jonathan Wilkes <
>>>>>>> jon.w.wilkes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 3:20 PM Ivica Bukvic <ico at vt.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > > The fix that may have triggered the regression you describe was
>>>>>>> supposed to fix a regression :-)
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > > Namely the code removed that deletes data structures during a
>>>>>>> redraw also tends to delete all the other objects on a subpatch when an
>>>>>>> undo action is triggered, leaving only patch cords visible. This was true
>>>>>>> regardless of the nw.js version. I suspect that the fix that Jonathan
>>>>>>> originally introduced there may have been because of drawing of the data
>>>>>>> structures alongside the regular objects on the same canvas, which is what
>>>>>>> the about page has with the animated cat.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Unfortunately, I can't create a scalar on a canvas at all. This is
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> > bug even if there are no gop subpatches in existence.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Also-- I tried reverting the code you're referring to, Ico. Even
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> > that code path present, a simple scalar will fail to
>>>>>>> > be displayed. Even worse-- nothing gets created on the GUI side. So
>>>>>>> > either the problem is something you introduced to
>>>>>>> > gui_scalar_new, or in the backend preventing that from every being
>>>>>>> called.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > -Jonathan
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > > My originally proposed merge request offered deleting only
>>>>>>> scalars in a situation that the code seemed to address. I also indicated
>>>>>>> that it needed to be tested further given I was unsure under which
>>>>>>> circumstances this code would be necessary. The final merge was Jonathan's
>>>>>>> where he erased that part entirely suggesting it was not necessary anymore.
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > > What may be helpful, as the code complexity continues to grow,
>>>>>>> is to carefully annotate each of these calls in the code so that we can
>>>>>>> better understand why they are placed there in the first place and what
>>>>>>> needs to be done to check for regressions.
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > > Best,
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > > Ico
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > > --
>>>>>>> > > Ivica Ico Bukvic, D.M.A.
>>>>>>> > > Director, Creativity + Innovation
>>>>>>> > > Institute for Creativity, Arts, and Technology
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > > Virginia Tech
>>>>>>> > > Creative Technologies in Music
>>>>>>> > > School of Performing Arts – 0141
>>>>>>> > > Blacksburg, VA 24061
>>>>>>> > > (540) 231-6139
>>>>>>> > > ico at vt.edu
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > > www.icat.vt.edu
>>>>>>> > > www.performingarts.vt.edu
>>>>>>> > > l2ork.icat.vt.edu
>>>>>>> > > ico.bukvic.net
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 14:16 Albert Graef <aggraef at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> > >>
>>>>>>> > >> Sorry, I missed these remarks earlier.
>>>>>>> > >>
>>>>>>> > >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 2:14 PM Jonathan Wilkes <
>>>>>>> jon.w.wilkes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> > >>>
>>>>>>> > >>> I can confirm running HEAD against a local 0.46.3 nw.js on
>>>>>>> aarch64
>>>>>>> > >>> does indeed work to load and display patches.
>>>>>>> > >>
>>>>>>> > >>
>>>>>>> > >> Have you tried the Help - About Pd-L2ork menu entry?
>>>>>>> > >>
>>>>>>> > >>> What do I need to add to the contributor's guide to make it
>>>>>>> clear what
>>>>>>> > >>> a desirable merge request branch should look like?
>>>>>>> > >>
>>>>>>> > >>
>>>>>>> > >> I guess you're talking about workflow here? That is, rebasing
>>>>>>> and squashing commits so that you present your feature branch a.k.a. merge
>>>>>>> request as simple and comprehensible as possible, with a clean and logical
>>>>>>> commit history. There's a lot that goes into that process and much of it
>>>>>>> is common sense -- but you'd probably have to replicate half the Git Book
>>>>>>> to explain these things really thoroughly.
>>>>>>> > >>
>>>>>>> > >> However, the main failure in this case IMHO was that there
>>>>>>> weren't enough eyeballs looking at this "patchset from hell", before the
>>>>>>> changes were merged into master. A call for help on the mailing list goes a
>>>>>>> long way there, explaining what the new set of changes is about, what parts
>>>>>>> of the program might be affected, and what needs to be tested. I did notice
>>>>>>> the flurry of commits, but I wasn't sure what they were about and didn't
>>>>>>> have the time to look into them. I would certainly have tried to give a
>>>>>>> helping hand in testing, though, when asked about it in the manner
>>>>>>> described. ;-) (Or maybe I missed that call, then I have to apologize.)
>>>>>>> > >>
>>>>>>> > >> Albert
>>>>>>> > >>
>>>>>>> > >>> > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 11:42 AM Sam Thursfield <
>>>>>>> ssssam at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> > >>> >>
>>>>>>> > >>> >> Hi Albert,
>>>>>>> > >>> >>
>>>>>>> > >>> >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:12 AM Albert Graef <
>>>>>>> aggraef at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> > >>> >> > The program still builds fine, launches and I can still
>>>>>>> open new patch windows (^n), but "About Pd-L2ork" doesn't work any more and
>>>>>>> I can't open existing patches either (apparently the patches do get opened
>>>>>>> in the engine, but no window is mapped).
>>>>>>> > >>> >>
>>>>>>> > >>> >> Is it possible that you are using a version of nw.js >=
>>>>>>> 0.42.3 ?
>>>>>>> > >>> >> This issue sounds a bit like
>>>>>>> > >>> >> https://git.purrdata.net/jwilkes/purr-data/-/issues/572
>>>>>>> > >>> >> Sam
>>>>>>> > >>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> > >>> >> L2Ork-dev mailing list
>>>>>>> > >>> >> L2Ork-dev at disis.music.vt.edu
>>>>>>> > >>> >> https://disis.music.vt.edu/listinfo/l2ork-dev
>>>>>>> > >>> >
>>>>>>> > >>> >
>>>>>>> > >>> >
>>>>>>> > >>> > --
>>>>>>> > >>> > Dr. Albert Gr"af
>>>>>>> > >>> > Computer Music Research Group, JGU Mainz, Germany
>>>>>>> > >>> > Email: aggraef at gmail.com, web: https://agraef.github.io/
>>>>>>> > >>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> > >>> > L2Ork-dev mailing list
>>>>>>> > >>> > L2Ork-dev at disis.music.vt.edu
>>>>>>> > >>> > https://disis.music.vt.edu/listinfo/l2ork-dev
>>>>>>> > >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> > >>> L2Ork-dev mailing list
>>>>>>> > >>> L2Ork-dev at disis.music.vt.edu
>>>>>>> > >>> https://disis.music.vt.edu/listinfo/l2ork-dev
>>>>>>> > >>
>>>>>>> > >>
>>>>>>> > >>
>>>>>>> > >> --
>>>>>>> > >> Dr. Albert Gr"af
>>>>>>> > >> Computer Music Research Group, JGU Mainz, Germany
>>>>>>> > >> Email: aggraef at gmail.com, web: https://agraef.github.io/
>>>>>>> > >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> > >> L2Ork-dev mailing list
>>>>>>> > >> L2Ork-dev at disis.music.vt.edu
>>>>>>> > >> https://disis.music.vt.edu/listinfo/l2ork-dev
>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>> > > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> > > L2Ork-dev mailing list
>>>>>>> > > L2Ork-dev at disis.music.vt.edu
>>>>>>> > > https://disis.music.vt.edu/listinfo/l2ork-dev
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> L2Ork-dev mailing list
>>>>>>> L2Ork-dev at disis.music.vt.edu
>>>>>>> https://disis.music.vt.edu/listinfo/l2ork-dev
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Ivica Ico Bukvic, D.M.A.
>>>>>> Director, Creativity + Innovation
>>>>>> Institute for Creativity, Arts, and Technology
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Virginia Tech
>>>>>> Creative Technologies in Music
>>>>>> School of Performing Arts – 0141
>>>>>> Blacksburg, VA 24061
>>>>>> (540) 231-6139ico at vt.edu
>>>>>> www.icat.vt.eduwww.performingarts.vt.edul2ork.icat.vt.eduico.bukvic.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Ivica Ico Bukvic, D.M.A.
>>>>>> Director, Creativity + Innovation
>>>>>> Institute for Creativity, Arts, and Technology
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Virginia Tech
>>>>>> Creative Technologies in Music
>>>>>> School of Performing Arts – 0141
>>>>>> Blacksburg, VA 24061
>>>>>> (540) 231-6139ico at vt.edu
>>>>>> www.icat.vt.eduwww.performingarts.vt.edul2ork.icat.vt.eduico.bukvic.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Ivica Ico Bukvic, D.M.A.
>>>>>> Director, Creativity + Innovation
>>>>>> Institute for Creativity, Arts, and Technology
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Virginia Tech
>>>>>> Creative Technologies in Music
>>>>>> School of Performing Arts – 0141
>>>>>> Blacksburg, VA 24061
>>>>>> (540) 231-6139ico at vt.edu
>>>>>> www.icat.vt.eduwww.performingarts.vt.edul2ork.icat.vt.eduico.bukvic.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Ivica Ico Bukvic, D.M.A.
>>>>>> Director, Creativity + Innovation
>>>>>> Institute for Creativity, Arts, and Technology
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Virginia Tech
>>>>>> Creative Technologies in Music
>>>>>> School of Performing Arts – 0141
>>>>>> Blacksburg, VA 24061
>>>>>> (540) 231-6139ico at vt.edu
>>>>>> www.icat.vt.eduwww.performingarts.vt.edul2ork.icat.vt.eduico.bukvic.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Ivica Ico Bukvic, D.M.A.
>>>>>> Director, Creativity + Innovation
>>>>>> Institute for Creativity, Arts, and Technology
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Virginia Tech
>>>>>> Creative Technologies in Music
>>>>>> School of Performing Arts – 0141
>>>>>> Blacksburg, VA 24061
>>>>>> (540) 231-6139ico at vt.edu
>>>>>> www.icat.vt.eduwww.performingarts.vt.edul2ork.icat.vt.eduico.bukvic.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> L2Ork-dev mailing list
>>>>>> L2Ork-dev at disis.music.vt.edu
>>>>>> https://disis.music.vt.edu/listinfo/l2ork-dev
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Dr. Albert Gr"af
>>>>> Computer Music Research Group, JGU Mainz, Germany
>>>>> Email: aggraef at gmail.com, web: https://agraef.github.io/
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Dr. Albert Gr"af
>>>> Computer Music Research Group, JGU Mainz, Germany
>>>> Email: aggraef at gmail.com, web: https://agraef.github.io/
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> L2Ork-dev mailing list
>>>> L2Ork-dev at disis.music.vt.edu
>>>> https://disis.music.vt.edu/listinfo/l2ork-dev
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ivica Ico Bukvic, D.M.A.
>>> Director, Creativity + Innovation
>>> Institute for Creativity, Arts, and Technology
>>>
>>> Virginia Tech
>>> Creative Technologies in Music
>>> School of Performing Arts – 0141
>>> Blacksburg, VA 24061
>>> (540) 231-6139ico at vt.edu
>>> www.icat.vt.eduwww.performingarts.vt.edul2ork.icat.vt.eduico.bukvic.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> L2Ork-dev mailing list
>>> L2Ork-dev at disis.music.vt.edu
>>> https://disis.music.vt.edu/listinfo/l2ork-dev
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dr. Albert Gr"af
>> Computer Music Research Group, JGU Mainz, Germany
>> Email: aggraef at gmail.com, web: https://agraef.github.io/
>> _______________________________________________
>> L2Ork-dev mailing list
>> L2Ork-dev at disis.music.vt.edu
>> https://disis.music.vt.edu/listinfo/l2ork-dev
>
> _______________________________________________
> L2Ork-dev mailing list
> L2Ork-dev at disis.music.vt.edu
> https://disis.music.vt.edu/listinfo/l2ork-dev
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